Justice, mercy, forgiveness, the atonement, and Alma 42

I'm going to start by first quoting some verses from Alma 42

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

In Alma 42, as well as in other scripture and literature, justice is personified, meaning it is given attributes or characteristics of a human. For example in verse 24, "justice exerciseth all HIS demands". In verse 15, "the demands of justice". While this makes for interesting writing, I don't think it helps in understanding the concept. Justice is not a person, justice can't demand anything. People demand justice. So in the context of Alma 42, WHO is demanding justice?

Another question is that of the relationship between justice and forgiveness. If God forgives us, then why does he still demand justice (payment of the debt = atonement). If someone owes me money, but I forgive the debt, I can't expect payment. Forgiving the debt means that the payment doesn't need to be paid anymore. This has been discussed a bit here.

As I've discussed this with several different people, I've run across several different theories about God, justice and forgiveness. I'm going to try to summarize them here.

Theory 1 God freely forgives. It is not God that demands justice (payment) but an outside "organization" (council of gods, society of gods, etc.). This may be viewed much like our earthly system of law and society. Perhaps you steal my wallet. When the police finally catch up with you, they find that you have spent all my money, as well as used my credit card. If I demanded justice, you would need to pay me back, but let's say that I forgive you and don't require that the debt be paid. That's not the end of it. There is an outside organization (police, courts, society) that may require a punishment anyway, perhaps paying a fine or jail time. In this theory Christ’s atonement would be paying the debt to the "organization"

Theory 2 God freely forgives. It is not God that demand justice but the people who are wronged and don't forgive. For example, you punch me in the nose. You have obviously offended (sinned against) me because you punched me in the nose, but you have also offended (sinned against) God because he asked you not to punch people in the nose. With this theory, God forgives you for sinning against him and does not require any payment. I now have the choice to forgive or demand justice. If I forgive you then it is over. No justice or payment is required. I don't get to hit you back, the debt is forgiven. Because all is forgiven, there is not a debt to be paid and Christ’s atonement is not involved in this situation. If I don't forgive you and demand justice, then a payment is required. This is where the atonement comes in. In this theory Christ’s atonement would be paying the debt to all those who don't forgive, but demand justice.

Theory 3 God freely forgives. At this point justice is no longer demanded. But although God forgives the debt, it is still there, unpaid. He just isn't demanding payment. It would be analogous to the following situation. You rack up a huge debt on your credit card. Then the credit card company says, hey, you know what, don't worry about paying it. They aren't going to wipe the debt away, it will still show up on credit reports and things like that. You just don't every have to pay it. In this theory Christ's atonement pays the debt to God so you can have a clean "record"

Theory 4 God doesn't forgive. It is he that demands justice. Christ pays the debt and then it is Christ that has the right to demand justice. Christ freely forgives, meaning he forgives and doesn't require that the debt still be paid. In this theory Christ’s atonement would be paying the debt to God.

Theory 5 God doesn't forgive the debt, but forgives the debtor. This is kind of like a status thing. Justice is demanded. God doesn't forgive the debt, meaning it still needs to be paid, but when he forgives the debtor, the debtor is brought back up to the same relationship status they were in prior to incurring the debt. In this theory Christ’s atonement would be paying the debt to God.

Each of them seem to have their own problems. What do you think? What do you see as problems with each theory? What is good about them? Do you have any modifications or other theories that will help explain justice, forgiveness, and the atonement?

Embraced by the arms of Christ

So the other night I was trying to get my 18 month old daughter to go to sleep. She is a beautiful girl, however she never likes going to bed. My wife and I had done the usual bedtime routine: a bath, Pajamas on, read a story, soft music playing, only the night light on. She still would not settle down for bed, so I was playing with her on the floor in her room. At this same time a lighting storm was now visible from the windows in her room. At first the bright lights only slightly startled her. However within a minute or two the thunder was also audible. (Where I live we get pretty big thunder storms in the summer.)

At this point my little girl begins to get really scared by the thunder. To aid to this, she is also tired since it is past her bed time. She normally is a Mama’s girl, but whenever she is scared she tends to want me and curl up in my lap. So she curled up in my lap and buried her head into my chest crying and terrified about what the sound and noise was outside. I embraced her and after the first initial cry she turned around to face the window so she could watch the lighting storm safe in daddies arms. She soon began to point at the lighting and smile making sure I also saw the bright lights. The thunder remained, but she was no longer scared she realized she was safe and everything will be okay.

At this time I got an insight, or spiritual download as some call it, into what believe in Christ can do for you. In this situation with the Thunder storm and my daughter the only thing that changed was she sat in my lap and felt of my love. Outside nothing changed, the storms were still raging. The same thing happens when we believe in Christ. The situation outside may not change, however we can metaphorically curl up in Christ lap, feel of his love for us, realize that we are safe and everything in the end will be okay! As we progress and work to build our relationship with Christ we can enable ourselves to feel more and more of his love, as we continue to grow eventually we will be able to be embraced in the arms of Christ.

Now I attend church faithfully and fulfill my callings to the best of my abilities, however I am constantly struggling to increase my faith. I am at the point where the church and a believe in Christ makes sense and I hope I am making the right choices in my life. But I really want to increase my hope to a knowledge of the truth. By knowledge I am not speaking of the multitude that profess every fast Sunday that they “know beyond a shadow of a doubt.” I refer to what Joseph Smith said, “No one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something, and this can only be in the Holiest of Holies” (May 1, 1842 WJS) This is why I occasionally write my thoughts here, an attempt to organize them and hopefully grow.

Faith Promoting Stories or Fact?

I have always enjoyed the vision of Wilford Woodruff where the signers of the Declaration of Independence, appear to him in the temple and request that there temple work be done. Part of this may be the fact that even though I reside in New Mexico part of me still considers St. George home. I even took out my own endowments in the St. George Temple.

However I recently read a small article that someone linked to on the Juvenile Instructor Blog. Brian Stuy's article in the Spring 2000 Journal of Mormon History “Wilford Woodruff's Vision of the signers of the Declaration of Independence" You can read the whole article here. Just look for the Wilford Woodruff vision in the column on the left hand side.

According to Stuy, Haden Wells Church and John Bernhisel had already preformed the baptismal ordinances for the people mentioned in Wilford Woodruffs vision, and the endowment was not yet available at this place. (ibid pg. 76) He goes on to assume evolution of Wilford Woodruffs night visions into visitations. I think we as Mormons often mistakenly assume that visions and visitations are one and the same. But that is another topic altogether.

I tend to agree with Stuys conclusion on this point. But the point I want to bring up is the concept of Faith promoting stories vs. Faith Promoting Fact. I can believe this story has inspired many a person to preform temple work for the dead. Which is great and wonderful. However many a person has left the church upon finding out that the great stories from Mormon History are not quite as they are retold in Sunday School. I have always believed that Mormon stories are like a fine wine and they get better with time.

My question is this, at what point does a little fabrication, cause more harm than good?

Second point I wish to make is to put a plug in for the New FamilySearch program. It is amazing how far the church has come with its Genealogy and temple tracking. With this interactive program we can make sure that temple work isn't repeated, like in the case of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Missionary work and The Second Coming

Yesterday during Priesthood someone made a comment about how prior to the second coming everyone will have the opportunity to hear the Gospel, which included all the Muslims. And how great it will be to get missionaries into the Muslim countries. The person who made this comment is the person who I am sure is in a lot of wards. Mainstream Mormon all the way. Gospel Doctrine teacher, member of the Elders Quorum Presidency, brother in the Stake Presidency, knows and quotes all the little catch all phrases all too common in the church. Now I have heard this and it was quite comforting while I was a missionary that I was giving all these people a chance to hear the Gospel, however as I have progressed this answer doesn’t seem to but it anymore. But is this something that we really believe or is it just Mormon Folklore? Does everyone need to accept Mormonism in “one eternal Round” or is that what the eternities are for?

At the end of May I noticed online that there are people in the Amazon who are still “uncontacted” by the outside world. Look here for one article on it. If we really believe this doctrine than this tribe would have to be contacted not only my Christians, but Mormons also.

This to me doesn’t seem to connect. Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus all seem to be blessed and have many truths in there lives. For me and my family, yes Mormonism is true and there are many blessing that we have received from our believes. However, with cultural differences and all I am sure that other major faiths, if followed, will benefit people where ever they are.

Help me out here, I seem to have a major disconnect with this concept.

Why we do the things we do

What is our motivation to not sin?

For some it is the fear of punishment. The problem with this motivation is that it is not always immediate or even evident. There are two kinds of punishment that we fear.

1. Fear that sometime after this life is over we will be punished. Here is the problem. Fear of a punishment that we don't understand, can't comprehend, and that will happen at some point in the distant future (assuming we have enough faith to believe it will happen) is just not a good enough motivation to get us not to sin.

2. Fear that we will be punished in this life. Something "bad" will happen to us. The problem with this is, number one, it's not consistent. Let me relate this to something we are all familiar with. Speeding. Whether speeding is a sin is a discussion for another time. I'd like to think of it in terms of a completely temporal law for now. If you break this law then there is a penalty...we'll sort of. Why do so many people speed? I think it's because a person may speed once, twice, three times, etc. and not see any negative consequences for the action, so they continue to do it. It's like that with us and sin as well. Perhaps we commit a sin once, twice, three times, and we don't notice any real consequences. Our lives are just as good as before we sinned. So what is to stop us?
The second problem with using fear of punishment in this life as a motivation not to sin is that even if we didn't sin and were perfect, bad things would still happen to us. Look at Christ. He never sinned, and he still had bad things happen to him. If bad things are going to happen anyway, I don't think that using that as a motivation not to sin is going to work very well.

Fear of punishment doesn't seem to be a good motivator to not sin. What about reward?

If we don't sin then we can go to heaven. In LDS terms, be exalted. What does that mean? Well to some people, heaven is fishing every day on a secluded pristine lake, to others it might be relaxing on a beach listening to the waves roll in. You may envision heaven some other way, but the reality is, the ultimate goal is to become a God (D&C 132:20) So here is the problem with that as I see it. Most of our sins pretty much boil down to selfishness. Both sins of commission and sins of omission. We do A, B, and C because we want to and we don't do D, E, and F because we don't want to. So why in the world would we want a life (being a God) where we have to be selfless and think about others 24/7. If that seemed like a great reward and what we truly wanted, we would just do it now. Why wait for a life like that if that's what we truly wanted? We could just have it right now. See, most of us don't want to think of others 24/7 so that doesn't seem like much of a reward. Certainly not enough to motivate us not to sin.

So if fear of punishment is not enough and the hope of reward is not enough, what is our motivation not to sin?

What's the deal with Satan?

So I've been reading Milton's Paradise Lost. It's got me thinking about the LDS view of Satan. Several questions have come to mind, so I thought I'd just throw them out there and see what people think.
1. We've had discussion on this blog about how involved God is in our lives. How involved do you think Satan is?
2. What is Satan's ultimate goal?
3. How much of the plan of salvation does he know?
4. Most of the LDS views make him out to seem pretty dumb. How smart is he?
5. How powerful is he?
6. Can Satan still be forgiven and redeemed at some point?

Future Hall of Famers

In the NBA (as well as with other sports) sometimes players come into the league and before they’ve even played a game they are touted as future Hall of Famers. I remember this being the case with LeBron James. When this happens, what the sports community assumes is, that if the player continues on the course he has established in his pre-NBA career, he will make the Hall of Fame. Eternal Glory will be his. Is it guaranteed? Not exactly. Injuries could cut his career short. Perhaps he could get into trouble off the court that could cut his career short or keep him from the Hall of Fame. But, we assume that barring any of these types of things, the player will be in the Hall of Fame. So why play? What is the purpose of their basketball life? What becomes the responsibility of a player like this?
I think it becomes the responsibility of players like this to make the players around him better. To raise them up and make his team better and lead them to a championship. Individual glory will already be theirs (Hall of Fame) but a championship gives glory to all. At the same time that a player lifts his teams as a whole to a championship, he adds to his own glory as well. He can also help other players attain individual glory by making them better. So what is all this talk about basketball. I’d like to draw an analogy between members of the church and future Hall of Famers. I think members of the church come to earth as future Hall of Famers. Think about it. Of all the billions of people that come to the earth, only relatively few are born into or become part of the covenant people. Why? People must end up here in this blessed situation because of the course they started on in their pre-earth life. Just like the NBA player that arrived at future Hall of Fame status because of the course he started in his pre-NBA life. Like LeBron James entering the NBA, members of the church come to earth with all the abilities to receive eternal glory. Now I think far too many are letting “injuries” and “off the court problems” get in the way of their making it to eternal glory, but that is another discussion. Let’s assume for this discussion that we stay on the course that we started and don’t digress. What then is the purpose of life? Why “play”? Here is the key. It’s about others people! Members of the church have an extraordinary responsibility for others. It’s not about us. We have been set on a course. Born into a good family, baptism, Holy Ghost, Priesthood, mission, married in the temple, raise a family. This is the course that many LDS members were set on. If they don’t let “off the court” problems interfere then they’re on a course toward eternal glory. In another post the question was brought up, then what is the purpose of life for these individuals? It is this. Like Lebron James, it is the responsibility of future Hall of Famers to raise others up. It's about other people. It's not about individual glory. It's about glory for all. I recently saw an interview with Magic Johnson. He made an interesting statement. He said he couldn't remember what years he had won the MVP award. But he could definitely remember the years his team won the championship. It's not about individual glory. It's about glory for all. That's how we raise our altitude. That's how we get to the next level. It's about other people.